Tuesday, May 5, 2009

Evidence for an Old Earth

Vagon submitted this awesome list over at AJ's blog (Pevensie15) and I thought it was worth reproducing here.

This is how we know the Earth is old;




Amino acid racemization - which is a technique that is used to date fossilized objects up to several millions of years in age.

Coral - whose formations take a long time to grow

Continental Drift - Tectonic drift is an incredibly slow process, the separation of landmasses would have taken millions of years. This is verified by satellite measurement.

Cosmogenic nuclide dating - The influx of cosmic rays onto the earth continually produces a stream of cosmogenic nuclides in the atmosphere that will fall to the ground.

Dendochronology - which is a method of scientific dating based on annual tree growth patterns called tree rings.

Distant starlight - Because the speed of light is finite, when you look at an object, what you are actually seeing is how the object was in the past. If the universe is only 6,000 years old how can objects billions of light years away — and therefore billions of years old — be seen?

Erosion - Many places on earth show evidence of erosion taking place over very long time periods, not drastic, as would have been caused by a worldwide flood.

Fission track dating - which is a radiometric dating technique that can be used to determine the age of uranium containing crystalline minerals.

Geomagnetic reversal - which is a change in the polarity of the earth's magnetic field. Around 171 reversals are geologically documented, which would make the earth at least several millions of years old.

Helioseismology - The composition of the sun changes as it ages.

Human Y-chromosomal ancestry - Analysis has shown that man lived around 60,000 years ago.

Ice Layering - Currently the greatest number of layers found in a single ice sheet is over 700,000, which clearly contradicts the idea of an earth less than 10,000 years old.

Impact craters - Asteroid impacts as big those that have been discovered would have led to the extinction of all medium to large size species (an event that is seen in the fossil record).

Length of the prehistoric day - as measured by evidence in coral.

Lunar retreat - which can't corelate with a 6,000 year old earth

Naica megacrystals - Based on classical crystal growth theory these crystals are older than one million years.

Oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating - is a method for determining the absolute age of charcoal samples with relative accuracy. One can determine ages of over 20,000 years ago with a standard error under 3%.

Permafrost - The formation of permafrost (frozen ground) is a slow process.

Petrified wood - The process in which wood is preserved by permineralization, commonly known as petrification, takes extensive amounts of time.

Radiometric decay - is the constant predictable decay of unstable atoms into more stable isotopes or elements. Measurements of atomic decay are generally considered to be one of the most accurate ways of measuring the age of an object, and these measurements form the basis for the scientifically accepted age of the earth. There are many different variations of the radiometric dating technique such as radiocarbon, argon-argon, iodine-xenon, lanthanum-barium, lead-lead, lutetium-hafnium, neon-neon, potassium-argon, rhenium-osmium, rubidium-strontium, samarium-neodymium, uranium-lead, uranium-lead-helium, uranium-thorium, and uranium-uranium, of which every single one will date objects far older than 10,000 years.
Relativistic jetsare jets of plasma that gets ejected from some quasars and galaxy centers that have powerful magnetic fields.

Rock Varnish - is a coating that will form on exposed surface rocks. The varnish is formed as airborn dust acumulates on rock surfaces. This process is extremely slow.

Space weathering - is an effect that is observed on most asteroids. This dating technique exceed millions of years.

Sedimentary varves - are laminated layers of sedimentary rock that are most commonly laid down in glacial lakes. The Green River formation in easter Utah is home to an estimated twenty million years worth of sedimentary layers.

Stalactites - These formations take extremely lengthy periods to form; the average growth rate is not much more than 0.1 mm per year.

Thermoluninescence dating - is a method for determining the age of objects containing crystalline minerals such as ceramics or lava.

Weathering rinds - are layers of weathered material that develop on glacial rocks. Certain weathering rinds on basalt and andesite rocks in the eastern United States appear to have taken over 300,000 years to form."

59 comments:

Kerri Love said...

The most holy Great Bunny says he did all that to trick you ;) but I think it's just cool!

Heath said...

This what one might call knot tying. Just tie a whole heap of knots. Then let the other person sit there and waist all there time unpicking them.

This is a great tactic for wasting a persons time. Most if not all of these questions have been address and there are very good arguments for both sides. It all comes down to evidence interpretation.

ExPatMatt said...

Heath,

You don't have to 'waist' your precious time coming over to my blog and reading things that I find interesting. If you'd rather feel safe and reassured, I suggest you stick to CARM and AIG - they'll tell you what you want to hear.

Kerry (haha! take that, letter 'i')

Is there some sort of competition between the Great Bunny and the FSM as to who can mess with human scientists the most.

Frodo,

Have a great holiday!

Kerri Love said...

No I don't think so, Frodo is so much better at it but he did inspire me somewhat ;)

Anonymous said...

Fine - I"m fifteen THOUSAND, how's that?

Question for you: How do you explain the fact that we. are. here.?
In your own words, of course.

ExPatMatt said...

Where? On 'Blogger'?
I'm sure there's a Wiki page that will tell you the history of blogging and how this all came about.

If you mean us as people. I came from my mummy's tummy after her and daddy got pregnant. You see, when a man and woman love each other very much...

How did they get here? Pretty much the same process. The same biological process of sexual reproduction that has been going on for the past several billion years.

Prior to that, small, squidgy things reproduced asexually.

Prior to that, abiogenesis is the best explanation for the emergence of life from non-life. We don't know all the details yet.

Prior to that (a long, long time prior to that), the material universe that we see around us expanded from a single point. We don't know why. We don't know what came before that. We don't even know if 'before' has any meaning when there is no space-time to refer to.


Does that answer your question?

[all in my own words too!]


How do you explain the fact that we. are. here?

Cheers,

Anonymous said...

Ha ha.
I believe that God created the world in six days, and on the sixth day he created Man.
We are descended from Adam and Eve, because of a loving God.

I can't tell if you're a christian making fun of atheiesm, or just a clueless athiest.

Anonymous said...

I should have signed off The Ancient One...
Oh well.

ImTheRabbit said...

I believe that God created the world in six days, and on the sixth day he created Man.Ah yes, the "I dream of Jennie" belief system (no offence implied of course). So are you of the belief that it is 6, 24 hour days or the belief that 6 days could mean centuries? Hard to tell which school of thought you are from, though I suspect you’re the 24 hour type ;)

ExPatMatt said...

"I can't tell if you're a christian making fun of atheiesm, or just a clueless athiest.".

That's a bit rude, isn't it?

I am an atheist, but I am curious as to what makes you think I am 'clueless'.

Also, in the word 'atheist' the 'i' goes after the 'e' (you should use Firefox, it has spellcheck!)

Cheers,

Anonymous said...

ah-HA!
Yeah, you're right.
I'm sorry, I was rude - mad, I guess. :)
I do believe in literal 24 hour days of creation - six, to be exact.

ExPatMatt said...

No worries, Eärwen.

I'm still wondering what makes you think I am 'clueless'.

Also, if you believe in a 24hr, 6-day Creation, what do you make of the list of evidences that started off this thread? Are they all in error?

Regards,

Gabriel said...

My good buddy Matt!

Many of these points (i.e. Distant Starlight) are presupposing your worldview. Sure, if it all happened "naturally", then the light would theoretically take a really long time to reach our planet.

But, to those of us simpletons who believe in a Creator, it's very easy to believe that He simply made the stars the way that they are, with their light already visible from Earth.

It's similar to a guy in a class of mine who said, "Sure, I believe there's a God. But some things...like, the 'virgin birth'...come on, a virgin can't give birth. That's ridiculous."

My thinking is...OK. You believe that it's possible that there's a God who created the Earth, right? So he's capable of creating and sustaining beings so intricate that it's beyond our comprehension. But He is not able to make a virgin woman give birth?

Well, if I am convinced that the Living God of the Bible is real, then surely it's sensible to me to believe that he created the stars... the Grand Canyon... the polar caps... and everything else, the way they are.

So, you're describing God's creation, basically...

Come on Matt... a bloke like you, with your creative sarcasm and superior wordplay... a cosmic accident?

No sir, I refuse to believe that.

ExPatMatt said...

Hey Gabriel,

You are basically saying that you believe that God is real and that the Bible is His inerrant Word and so therefore anything that looks a bit like it might contradict what the Bible says is meant to be that way because that's just the way Goddidit. Right?

So you believe in a prankster God who would create a universe full of evidence that points to it being very, very old and then inspire the writing of a book that would be interpreted to say that world was very, very young.

Thus ensuring that at least one group of people got it dead wrong - depending on whether they trust the observable, repeatable, testable aspects of the 'creation' they get to experiment with during their lives or whether they trust the accuracy of an ancient holy text.

Nice one, God!

My acceptance of an old universe is a conclusion, not a presupposition. It's what the data tells us when you look at it without religious dogma demanding that you creatively interpret it a certain way. I'd still accept an old universe and evolution even if I believed in God; because that's what the facts show us.


I get that you're being true to your faith and your rejection of well-established scientific principles is a necessary result of that, so don't worry about it; I'm just presenting what the evidences are that us foolish old-earthers base our position on.

But, of course, you can always hand-wave and say Goddidit to anything you like, can't you?


Cheers, (and have a great Memorial weekend!)

Gabriel said...

Actually, I did not submit anything further than the possibility that God created things the way they are. I was merely letting you know that it's not difficult for a Christian to believe that God made things as they are, because that's how he wanted them.

For the record, you were the one who executed the hand-waive, based on your idea of what I thought; you presumed that I was copping out.

I can tell you that God created this world and this universe. Did He take billions of years to do it? I don't think so; but if He did, that just the way He wanted to do it.

God created all beings on Earth. Can you tell me why babies are conceived? No; you can tell me how, I'm sure, but not why.

Arguing about these things can be fun, but we should be careful not to be like a couple guys who spend the whole baseball game arguing about what type of grass is used in the outfield, and meanwhile missing the whole point of being there.

(Or, wait...are you a soccer guy?) Please forgive my ethno-centric metaphor).

ExPatMatt said...

Gabriel,

I think I drew a logical conclusion based on what you told me; correct me if I'm wrong.


You're saying that if God wants the world to appear old - that's just the way He made it.

If God wanted the light from stars to look like it takes many light-years to reach us - that's just the way He made it.

But, the Bible tells us certain things that contradict these observations, so what do you do when observations of reality contradict Scripture?


Babies are conceived because people want to procreate (or sometimes because they don't but they've had no sex ed so they don't understand how the whole pregnancy thing works).

Can you tell me why a rather high percentage of healthy mothers suffer miscarriages?

No worries on the Baseball metaphor; I'm in N. America now, so I've got to live with it!

Regards,

Gabriel said...

I cannot tell you why healthy mothers have miscarriages. Only God knows why things like that happen. I also cannot tell you why healthy babies are terminated by their parents. Tragic, in both circumstances.

In Heaven, mysteries like this will be understood.

My mind goes back to God telling us that the meek and humble will understand. I suppose it takes a humble person to have faith in something that seems to defy logic. Because, in effect, this is a challenge to their ego.

And the probably response of, "Ha! God's trying to trick us! The trickster!" is missing the point as well, I believe.

Your perspective is, "God make the world to appear old, and the stars to appear like their light took many years to reach us" like it's a cosmic practical joke or something... when in reality, God made them the way they are, and your perspective tells you that these things. What will science tell us a hundred years from now? Perhaps something different. People, throughout history, have always prided themselves on living at the apex of science and knowledge. Look what usually ends up happening, though, a bit down the road.

Religious dogma is your enemy, I'm sure. But if you look at the past, scientific dogma has been less-than-reliable.

Kerri Love said...

I think it's very possible that God created the universe by using something like that big bang discribes. He's God and he can create in what ever way he sees fit. Maybe he want us to figure it out, who knows.

I posted about that on my blog if anyone is interested :)

ExPatMatt said...

Gabriel,

At some point, you just have to face facts. The world we live on is very, very old. No amount of perspective-shifting is going to change that.

There's nothing to say that God didn't make it that way, my only question is why does His inspired Word appear to contradict what we can observe?

With your 'meek and humble' approach, you are treading a very fine line. On the other side of that line is blind, unquestioning face - no matter what you're presented with. As a person with intelligence, I don't see how you could find that an appealing choice.

It's sort of like; 'don't worry about it - God will have all the answers in Heaven' I have too much curiosity for that.

The difference between religious and scientific 'dogma', as you know, is that scientific opinions change to fit new data. Religious dogma stays the same in the face of glaring contradiction.



This post is about the evidences for the age of the Earth. If you have any good explanation as to why these, and hundreds of other lines of evidence, point to a planet that is far older than 10,000 years, I'd be glad to hear it.
And no, 'Goddidit' is not an explanation, it's an excuse.

Cheers,

Kerri Love said...

Anyone who thinks the Bible contains all the answers to everything is practicing idolatry. God does not live inside paper pages, he lives out here, in universe and we are trying to learn about him by studying his creation, we don't just study one book.

Gabriel said...

Matt,

It's always my pleasure to discuss things with you. I love that we can be friendly, because that's where we'll get joy out of our tennis matches. I would imagine that most (if not all) of our discussions could possibly end with the same stalemate.

Would it be terribly stereotypical of me to assume that you're a hockey fan, up there in Canada?

ExPatMatt said...

Actually, I've taken more to basketball (the Leafs suck, so there's no point watching them!)

I still manage to watch the English Premier League (Soccer) from time to time though, so that keeps me sane!

I'm something of a novelty up here; can't skate, can't snowboard, can't skin a moose - makes things kind of interesting.


Nothing wrong with a stalemate, my friend, as long as things don't go stale!

/cheese

Gabriel said...

Ah, great stuff! I am a huge basketball fan. This is some of the best playoff basketball I have ever seen, and my team's not even in it.

Anonymous said...

Yes. :) Short and to the point.
Oh, and thank you for being so forgiving.
I tend to let my temper get the better of me, something with I know God doesn't like...

Anonymous said...

Wow, FrodoSaves, that wasn't nice at all!

ExPatMatt said...

Ëarwen,

Which do you think I should lend more credibility to; The combined works of hundreds of thousands of scientists working in multiple, unconnected fields of research over many decades, who individually and collectively produce a body of work that is internally consistent, effective as a predictive model and accounts for all the know data and attests to a planet that is older (way older) than 10,000 years.

Or should I lend more credibility to your claim that all these works are in error (with nothing to back it up except your faith that your interpretation of the Holy Book of your religion is correct)?

Tough choice, eh?



And what's wrong with what Frodo said? I am arrogant and I'm not sure who my dad is...

Cheers,

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However, what about this? what if you added a little information?
I mean, I don't wish to tell you how to run your website, however suppose you added a title that grabbed folk's attention?
I mean "Evidence for an Old Earth" is a little plain. You could glance at Yahoo's home page and watch how they write article titles to get people interested. You might try adding a video or a pic or two to get readers excited about everything've written.
In my opinion, it could bring your posts a little livelier.


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